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| Guitar Patents! http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9876 |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:38 pm ] |
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Greg posted a link in the off topic section for Google Patent search. Thought that this one might stir the pot a little bit as many of you (if you don't have permision from the "inventor) may be infringing. Interesting indead There's many more, just started to look. Maybe as simple as changing brace sizes though. 
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:56 pm ] |
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Hey Rod. Very interesting!!! The broadest claims in this patent have no limitations related to brace sizes, so that strategy won't work. The patent is still in force, too, I checked the USPTO website. This patent is for Martin's new X-brace "A-frame" system where the neck block has channels which receive the A braces. The A braces extend from within the channels in the neck block and extend along and below the sides of the sound hole. Hmmmmm! |
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| Author: | Jocafa [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:18 pm ] |
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I absolutely love Google's new patent search. I hated digging through the USPTO's website; it was such a pain. Also, don't you just love how broken our patent system is? 
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:45 pm ] |
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While I agree that the patent system has serious problems, this patent is not a great example of same. CF Martin came up with this bracing layout first and were rewarded with a patent for their innovation. Now, if someone can show that the claimed invention was made first by someone else, then the patent is not enforceable. That is how it is supposed to work! So it goes!
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| Author: | Jocafa [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:49 pm ] |
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I wasn't disputing the patent, just making conversation. 
Has anyone played around / experimented with their bracing patterns here? |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:10 pm ] |
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Well, I certainly don't want to stir things up too much here but I have "heard" that this "could be" a similar case to the Martin Carthy/Paul Simon "experience" with "Scarborough Fair". I "understand" that Roger Bucknall of Fylde guitars and George Lowden were using this form of body/neck bracing for a significant number of years before Marin "invented it". Well there's folklore, facts and US patents. You pays your money (or pay you lawyers money) and makes your choice as they say! |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:44 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Dave White] Well, I certainly don't want to stir things up too much here but I have "heard" that this "could be" a similar case to the Martin Carthy/Paul Simon "experience" with "Scarborough Fair". I "understand" that Roger Bucknall of Fylde guitars and George Lowden were using this form of body/neck bracing for a significant number of years before Marin "invented it". Well there's folklore, facts and US patents. You pays your money (or pay you lawyers money) and makes your choice as they say![/QUOTE] Dave, George and Roger were certainly doing this well before the Martin Patent. And, as you say, ever since Paul Simon copied Martin Carthy's version of the centuries old traditional song Scarborough Fair note for note and word for word, then went back to the US and copyrighted it, not only is Paul Simon 'persona non gratia' here, but I also tend to ignore US patents and copyright! They'll be patenting DNA sequences next! What they are?!!! Colin At least PS didn't copyright the three different versions of the song that I do! |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:46 am ] |
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I am aware of a few folks that use this or a similar brace system, but I don't know for how many years. There is a recent thread where Alan Carruth professes to doing something similar in response to a post where I show my A-frame bracing. In relation to patents and prior art, I have heard similar discussion regarding the fanned frets patent, as in "Folks have been doing this for years." (Or centuries, in the FF example) Hesh - You are correct...I got that from Vonnegut, you have a good memory. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:47 am ] |
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Colin, I think you can safely ignore US patents - it's the UK ones you have to look out for!!! 
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:32 am ] |
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If you can produce "prior art" for a patent, the patent is null and void. It is not necessary for the patent holder to know about the prior art either. If you want to spend the money to challange this patents and you have documented proof the the technique was used prior to Martin's filing, than you should have a good chance of over turning the patent. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:53 am ] |
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Patents Schmatents! This particular one doesn't bug me too much, but if we want to talk about guitar patents in general this could go on forever. Fanned frets, tons of intonation and "tuning systems", bracing variations.... If the person challenging the patent did thier research and had a good lawyer, I would be surprised if half of today's guitar patents would hold up. The catch is finding someone with unlimited time and money to spend in court defending the principle of public domain. I don't really know anyone who can do this, and that is why the patents are still there. My favorite application as of late is from Denny Zager. It's been about a year since I read it, but it seemed like it would cover any and all setups that could be considered playable (although I'm not even sure the Zager EZ Play guitars I've seen could be considered as such ).
Edit: I checked the google patent search and didn't see a way to search applications. I'd love it if there were, because the software that the USPTO site requires for viewing images has always been a pain on my mac. |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:05 am ] |
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Hesh, If you can produce a guitar that has the feature and you also have some way to determine when the instrument is made, then you have prior art. It can be a plan or a physical example. David, I suspect that you are right in that most of the guitar patents wouldn't stand up to a well funded challenge. I don't think that Martin, for example, is interrested in enforcing this patent against small builders. If Gibson, Taylor or other head to head competitor were to come out with an instrument with this bracing pattern, Martin's lawyers would contact them. Most of the time, these are settled through patent exchanges. Suppose Martin wanted to use a process that Taylor has a patent on. Usually, they would offer Taylor access to their patents or patents. They view patents as assets on account that they can spend for access to other technology. |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:52 am ] |
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Marc Silber, of the Silber Reich Museum {antique intstruments} has stated in a Guitar Player Magazine interview that he has at least 3 X-braced instruments that predate the earliest Martin X-braced instruments by 20 or more years - Appearantly they were made in London by a couple of Russian brothers, and the article goes on to state that the guitars could have quite possibly been seen and copied by C F Martin, as luthiers in that era used to seek out and check the innovations of one another on thier travels. so the story goes. I found it interesting anyhow. Cheers Charlie PS Rod how did you fare in the windstorm? |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:06 pm ] |
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For Patents to be enforced the owner of the patent has to police it's use. This is not something the patent office does. So basically you have to sue everyone or nobody. Patents are kind of a joke these days in my opinion and I think that USPO doesn't really do a good background check on the inventions and grants way too many patents. Once again my opinion. |
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| Author: | Frank Ford [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:23 pm ] |
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Like-a this: Patent Process |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:36 am ] |
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Here's Franks link, it didn't seem to work the first time. Funny stuff Frank, thanks Absurd Patent |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:51 am ] |
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Mr. Ford, someone should warn Donald Trump! Now there's someone who has money to loose!
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